Author: wmhumans

What is an activity or an extracurricular that you’ve been involved in that has been particularly meaningful to you?

I’ve done a lot over the time that I’ve been here, but the one thing that has been the most consistent is my involvement with Baptist Campus Ministries. I came to school not expecting to be in a campus ministry, but a friend convinced me to go. It’s been a really interesting space for me to grow, because I come from a very conservative family. There was a disjunction for me because I didn’t grow up believing in the same sorts of things that my parents and my church supported. Coming into a space that was more inclusive was very meaningful, but also being able to be a part of that and come to terms with a lot of negative feelings I still had towards the church has been interesting. I’ve also been a small group Bible study leader for the past two years. I’ve tailored our discussions to be about how we can talk about the church in a more critical light to make it a more inclusive space for people of different sexualities, gender identities, and things like that.

How has your personal perception of religion changed as a result of your involvement with the campus ministry?

I definitely came into college as an atheist, but through Baptist Campus Ministries I’ve found a renewed faith in some form of a higher power. My spirituality is very different than a lot of Baptists. I think that most people who are involved in campus ministries have a very well-formed, concrete idea of their beliefs. But for me, I had to reconnect with religion through thinking about how I can use this framework of Christianity and my understanding of Jesus to better emphasize love and compassion and care for others in a way that makes sense to me.

What are your thoughts on how religious organizations on campus can progress and change for the better – do you have any specific ideas about that?

Definitely – something that has been important to me is bridging the gap between the rest of campus and the campus ministries because I think we can tend to be very insular and isolated from the rest of campus. I’ve noticed that people within campus ministries tend to only hang out with other people in the campus ministries, and it’s seen as almost negative to be a part of other things. There’s a certain level of worldliness that this ought to take precedence. But I think Christians have a calling to go out into the world and seek out people that are different from them and to have an exchange of viewpoints. If we’re having these exchanges, then maybe I can show you Jesus through my experiences and then through listening to others, I can better understand perspectives that are different from my own. I’ve tried to bring people that aren’t associated with campus ministries into our discussions and then to bring people in campus ministries outside of their bubbles. It’s really been my goal to combine those two worlds to form a more inclusive and understanding community. In particular, my small group this year focused on science and religion, and how science and Christianity often conflict. We’ve been exploring how that’s such a false dichotomy – you can believe in a higher power and faith, but you can also believe in the Big Bang and physics. We also talked about climate change earlier in the year, and how that’s so important in the discussion of communities that are more affected by climate change in relation to environmental racism. There’s a Christian moral imperative to address that. So again, just bridging the gap between this bubble that Christians often live in and the rest of the world has been really valuable to me.

The individual that nominated you for Women of William & Mary also mentioned your involvement in Vox: Planned Parenthood Generation Action. In what ways has your faith contributed to or possibly conflicted with that?

I haven’t been as involved in Vox this year as previous years, but in previous years I’ve tried to be an advocate for people that are pro-choice. That definitely conflicts with the typical views of the church and church doctrine. I actually had the chance to speak at a Vox event about being religious and pro-choice, and I think again it comes down to having a social justice mindset. All Christians are called to love others, and I think there’s nothing loving about deciding that people can’t make choices about their own bodies. It’s been an interesting tension because a lot of people in campus ministries don’t have that same mindset as me. But at the same time, there’s still been a space for me to share different viewpoints with those in the campus ministries, and I’ve really appreciated getting to talk about Vox in our large group meetings. If we can start a dialogue, we’ll be more likely to get things done and find commonalities. Pro-choice or not, we can agree that we want less people to have abortions. But that’s not the narrative that people who are pro-life may not acknowledge about people who are pro-choice. But when we start conversations and both sides try to understand the other more, there’s a greater chance for compromise. This year I’ve been able to start a community within my small group where we specifically talk about issues that Christians don’t typically like to talk about, like abortion, sex, and what’s it like to be in the LGBT community and the church. It’s an open space for conversation, its judgment-free, and we’ll all still care about each other at the end of the day.

Is your small group only female?

No, although I would say Baptist Campus Ministries as a whole has more girls in it, but there are a few girls in my small group.

That’s interesting, because I know that some other religious organizations on campus specifically separate their small groups by gender. I’d imagine that it’s actually really productive to have both included because it provides an opportunity for more perspectives to be shared.

Definitely, and I’ve been aggressively against having specific male and female small groups in Baptist Campus Ministries, just because I think that when you really get down to it, the experiences of men and women aren’t all that different.

Another aspect that I remember from your nomination is the person stating that anyone can study or talk about doing something, but you would be the one to actually step up and directly face an issue. Why do you think you choose to be a participant rather than just an observer?

Particularly at William & Mary, I think we have a tendency to lean towards academia, but that isn’t necessarily where my strengths lie. It’s great to talk about issues, but I like to figure out what the actual impact of our words are. Everything in theory is only useful for its practical value. I want to explore what we can do with information and how we can take actions that will actually invoke change in communities. At the end of the day, my mindset is “can I do something with my life that improves the lives of others?” Although I think academia and the pursuit of knowledge are incredibly worthwhile, what is knowledge if you’re not using for the benefit of someone else? I think that people in academics and William & Mary students have a responsibility to acknowledge that they get to go to college and should explore how they can use the things they learn to impact others.
I grew up in a very rural community, and quite frankly, going to college was not the norm or the expectation for people from my area. I’m a first generation college student, and I think maybe twenty to thirty people, out of my graduating class of one hundred and forty people, went on to a four year college. I grew up around people who did not have access to knowledge, and who were stuck in a lot of cycles of poverty, addition, poor healthcare, and all these negative things. There’s this whole other realm of people who are talking about these issues that people face, but aren’t making any attempts to address them. As people of privilege, we have a moral imperative to do things for other people who are in need. So I think that’s been what drives me to want to take direct action within communities, specifically bridging the gap between the bubble of William & Mary and the broader community.

How has that mindset been apparent in your involvement with Greater City Williamsburg?

I was involved with Greater City from my sophomore year to my junior year. We know that poverty in Williamsburg is a big deal, but Greater City tried to bridge the gap between what we know and what we’re doing. I think Greater City does a really good job of getting into communities, talking to people, feeding people, fostering friendships, and creating a space where students can create relationships with people that they wouldn’t have been able to otherwise. I think the median family income of William & Mary students is something like $75,000, and that’s insane because so many people in Williamsburg are living below the poverty line. So, I really appreciate the work that Greater City does in bridging the gap between what we know and what we can do for people.

There were so many activities that were listed in your nomination application, and I feel like that really speaks to your commitment to community development.

For sure, those activities have made my time at William & Mary so meaningful – Baptist Campus Ministries, Vox, Greater City, and then I also work for AidData, Virginia Institute for Marine Science, and I’ve been an RA.

One final question that we’ve wanted to ask all of our Women of William & Mary nominees is, what’s a piece of advice that you would give to other female students?

I think what a lot of William & Mary students struggle with is being confident. So I would say, if you’re doing what you love, then you’re doing something worthwhile. Know that you can do it, whatever it is. If you love it, do it even if it’s hard and even if it seems like it’s not worthwhile at times. You should never feel like you have to apologize for who you are or how you interact with the world. I’m thinking in particular of a friend of mine that I’ve been getting to know better recently. She always apologizes for things, and I just want to tell her that I can see how well she’s doing and that she doesn’t have to be sorry for trying. I think we all get to William & Mary and realize that there’s a lot of smart people here, and so we feel the need to apologize for not being good at everything. But no, you’re doing amazing, and the people around you here are happy to help you realize that.

Will you please introduce yourself and just tell me a little about yourself?

I am Robin McCall, and I have been teaching here since 2013 NTE (non-tenure eligible). And I teach Classical Hebrew and the Israelite Religion. I also teach a freshman seminar called “Sympathy for the Devil,” a sort of history about Satan and the development of the figure. This seminar is fun, and I really do love teaching that class. I am from Virginia, grew up in Richmond, and did my undergraduate work at UVA.

I have a twin sister that goes to UVA, so I definitely understand the rivalry that goes on between William and Mary and UVA, but of course, I do not hate UVA as much as other people.

So yeah, my area of specialty is the Hebrew Bible.

More along the lines of the Torah?

Yes. the whole Old Testament.

What made you get into teaching the Hebrew Bible?

That is a good question. I have had a kind of circuitous path. When I went to college [at UVA], I went in expecting to go into clinical psychology. [laughing] It was a terrible fit, honestly. I was pre-med for a year and did most of my pre-med courses in a year and then realized that I really do hate science. I was really bad at it even though I had already completed most of my major requirements. After finishing undergrad, I went to seminary to study church music. I have always been a musician.

Did you go to Union [Presbyterian Seminary in Richmond, Virginia]?

I went across the street to Baptist Theological Seminary. I did take a lot of course at Union, though so I understand the connection.

I am from Richmond so whenever I hear an individual going to seminary, I immediately think of Union.

I loved [seminary]. It was a lot of fun, especially after suffering through pre-med in undergrad. While I was there, I had to take a class on the Old Testament, and Hebrew, and as it turned out, I absolutely loved it. I felt like all the secrets of the universe were being revealed and that I was seeing the world in whole new ways. It was amazing. So, I was a minister of music for three years while I was in seminary and then I went on to complete my PhD at Princeton Theological Seminary in that field.

I am basing this off of your seminary work, but are you Baptist?

I was, but I wouldn’t necessarily identify as Baptist now. I would identify more along the lines of nondenominational. Still Christian, but less practicing than I used to be. I think this happens a lot to people who work outside of their particular field. I have seriously thought of converting to Judaism many times, especially given my course of study. I still hold a messianic faith in Jesus, but my Christianity is heavily influenced by Judaism.

Has faith been a big part of your life?

It has. My parents were very active in Church. I was one of those Baptist kids who ran into Church as soon as the doors were open. And I never thought that I would go working in the field of religion. I can remember very specifically when I was in junior high school thinking that the Bible was unutterably boring and dull.

Oh boy. That is a hot take especially coming from a Southern Baptist.

[Laughing] You are not allowed to have that feeling, even growing up in Richmond. But it was true, and I did think that. When I was at UVA, I was a religion minor, and I actively avoided taking Biblical studies because I thought that the Bible was boring. And then I went to Seminary, and there they taught me how wrong I was for thinking that about the Bible. It was completely awesome and really fascinating, having your assumptions about the Bible radically changed. I think what really excited was that once you get into the academic study of religion, you are free to ask questions that you cannot ask in a denominational setting. The church and the school offer completely separate things. And so, when you are in the Church, there are questions that they discourage you from asking. Whereas with the School, they are like “those are the questions that you should be asking.” And that to me was very freeing. I really loved that. And the whole idea of the Hebrew Bible and the meaning of the name “Israel” is “wrestling with God.” That idea of wrestling with the text and wrestling with God is at the heart of what the Hebrew Bible is about.

Has this notion of “wrestling with God” defined your idea of faith?

It does. Asking questions and as a person of faith, having the belief that God is big enough and willing to field those questions.

I am Presbyterian, so I understand some of those feelings that you have felt and are currently feeling. There are questions that I feel like I cannot broach and touch upon even as a member of the Presbyterian Church. However, being a member of Intervarsity on campus gives me the opportunity to raise these questions that I feel like I cannot ask. Similar to what you were saying, faith evolves and mine certainly has over the past couple of years here on this campus and is still continuing to this day.

I wholeheartedly agree that the more ways that human beings experience God the better since we are able to see how other traditions understand God.

Does your idea of faith play a role in how you teach?

In a way it does. For one thing, I am keenly aware that I come from a Christian background, and I teach texts that belong to Christians yet belong to Jews a bit more or first in a sense. There is a matter of reverence and gratitude for being able to step into this arena of faith and have something to say about these texts. I am always trying to retain a sense of humility since I understand that these are not my texts to walk all over and give my own interpretation on the matter.

Especially with the Torah and the Bible, I understand what you mean.

And the language in those two separate texts have two completely different meanings depending on your interpretative context. For example, you can look at one of the texts that comes up all the time in my Freshman seminar, the text of Isaiah 14. “How we have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!” In the Christian tradition, this means the fall the Lucifer, which is something that you will ever going to find in a Post-Biblical Christian context. In my field of study, no Israelite or Jew would interpret Isaiah 14 in this Christian context. How you read these texts plays a role in your own interpretive context. That critical understanding plays a role in how I teach since you have to have an awareness on the way that you read these texts. And because I was in grad school for a long time and did a lot of teaching as a graduate student in a Seminary context, I am sensitive to how disruptive it can be for people of faith particularly Christians, who are coming into this field of academic study of the Hebrew Bible experiencing some super weird ideas for the first time. What I mean by that is the undermining of assumptions that they have held for a long time.

Is that a struggle for the religious studies department here at WM since y’all try to have people understand faith but not try to undermine their own faith?

Yes! Exactly! That is definitely a big part of religious studies. I often encounter the idea from students that as an academic, I want to undermine their faith — that in order to be a good scholar of religion, you have to be an atheist, which is completely wrong. There are certainly many excellent atheist scholars of religion. But you can be both a religious scholar and a person of faith. I am often about trying to explain to students who are already practicing Christians or Jews how I am here to open up your faith and make it bigger. And if you have faith, I want you to not hide from any questions that you might want to ask because your faith might fall apart. How can I help you approach these texts and ask questions of these texts in ways that do not close these doors but rather open those doors and enrich what you personally believe?

What was the hardest thing that you have encountered as a professor? Has a student come to you wondering about what they believe and whether God is even real?

I have experienced those conversations. I kinda enjoy those conversations. I do not believe that these conversations are necessarily hard because I believe that we all at some point are going to hit that wall.

Some earlier on than others?

Yeah. This is in large part what college is for since you are figuring out what your role is in the world and how you are perhaps different from your parents or from people who have influenced your identity through your life and will continue to do so. But you are beginning to figure out the person you want to be, and this [questioning of faith] is a huge part of the process. Faith or lack of faith, since I have some students who come in as atheists and struggle with these texts from a very different position, are parts of your identity. I want to make [the academic student of religion] something fun to explore. It is supposed to be an adventure and [you should] not be afraid of it because this is wonderful, and I love what I do. It does not have to be a bad thing at all. I generally find that the academic study of religion will get people more interested in finding out their roots. They love [finding out] where did [they] come [from] and what have people before me believed in and how do I fit into [these beliefs]. This may means letting go of some things, but it may also mean finding deep value in things that you didn’t expect to find deep value in.

That is really deep. Being a person of faith myself, I have never really talked to a religious studies scholar considering that I have talked to political theorists and literature scholars. I think coming to talk with someone who also believes in the same faith as I do is eye-opening since even though we may not see eye to eye on some aspects of Christianity, we still believe in the same God.

I do believe that. We as Christians have a changing place in this world and I think that to some extent that the academic study of religion can offer the world since the academic study of religion is different than faith-based study of religion. For example, one of the early things that students in my History of the Israelite Religion class encounter is the fact that we do not have an archaeological evidence to support the historical and empirical validity of the Exodus. This raises the issue of how we view truth. I believe that those who are in the “nones” place, the spiritual but not religious place, find that the academic study of religion scratches some of those itches [of looking for spiritual meaning]. I think humans are just looking for things that are bigger than we actually are.

Is this why we are studying the Hebrew text? Are you trying to give a scholarly interpretation of the text while also acknowledging the historical context of the Hebrews?

Inevitably, we are looking for interpretation. I think that these texts are situated within a culture of real people. The historical circumstances of their lives gave rise to the texts and their meaning interactions. The Hebrew Bible is a collection of texts that raises the question of what it means to be a Jew especially during a time of oppression such as the 6th Century Babylonian Exile. What do we do if we don’t live in the land of Israel? Can we have to worship in the same way, or do we need new practices? If we’ve been taken away from these cultural touchstones, how can we worship our God? That is what these texts are really about. I want my students regardless of what traditions they come from to read the texts and question the historical context. How do these texts help people shape their own identity?

Thank you so much for this interview. I just have one more question. If you could say anything to the future women of William and Mary given the definitive impact you have made as a female professor and as a woman of faith, what would you say?

What I want to always encourage women to do is to never be afraid to ask questions. And if people refuse to answer them, ask questions in different ways. Be curious. Understand that your questions may trouble the status quo and that isn’t a bad thing since it opens up new ways of viewing the world. And nobody will understand the world in exactly the ways that you do. Do not just sit back and think you have nothing to add to the conversation. Nobody will understand what you have read and what you think unless you speak up. Bring your voice to the table. The conversation is always richer if you bring a myriad of viewpoints to the table.

If you could say anything to future women of William and Mary, what would you say?

I would say there are a lot of challenges to being a woman, in general. Especially being at a school where a lot of things, a lot of fields, and a lot of subjects are still super male-dominated, it’s harder to gain recognition as a woman in leadership roles.  It’s difficult to be in charge of an organization if people don’t take you seriously. I also think that we as William & Mary students like to believe that we’re a very progressive campus and that things are really good here, but I think there are always ways to improve. For example, in ROCKET Magazine, it’s a great organization and I love everyone, but sometimes it still feels like because I’m a woman, I’m not taken as seriously if people think I’m too nice or cute or dainty. If people think that of you, they think that you’re not going to do anything to enforce what you say or the rules that you set, traits that are naturally attributed to men, so I think that is something difficult that I’m still working to overcome. But to future women of William & Mary,  just keep persevering – ultimately your work ethic will show through, so do whatever it is that you want to do, no matter what and no matter who says that you can’t, because you can do anything.

So moving forward from that last thing you said, how do you personally go through those challenges on a daily basis?

I’m an art major who specifically focuses on sculpture and I’m actually one of the only technical sculpture majors on campus, and I think that is something that I deal with more often than I’d like to. I also think that personally because I do sculpture, I’m very hands on, and the materials and tools I work with are really industrial, and could be male-dominant and attributed to men. I do a lot of cement work, I weld, and I use a lot of metal for metal work that involves power tools. So to me, I always feel like I”m a good example of the fact that anyone can do it, that it’s not just something that a man can do because they’re “big” and “strong.” I’m a five-foot-tall Asian girl, and I can do whatever a man can do. Anybody can, but I deal with a lot of people being surprised at what I do, and not thinking that I can do the things that I can do. I’m always trying to fight the stigmatization, so for things like that, I always like to surprise people with how strong I can be and what I can do, but it shouldn’t even be a surprise. Why are there even still  gendered characteristics and stereotypes?

In contrast to just naturally being boxed in both your pursuits as an artist and as a woman, how does the college support you?

The college itself can always do things that are better, but there are still good aspects of the overall experience. Having a lot of outlets on campus that allow for women to express themselves is something that stands out to me. I also appreciate having peers that are really supportive, like my advisor and my mentor who is a woman. She was the head of the art department, (though she’s on sabbatical right now,) but I think that’s a huge step to show that a woman can be the chair of the department. I think that’s cool–it’s not surprising, but it’s nice. On the other hand, there are only two female professors in the art department, which is pretty strange, but her being the chair was really cool and impressive. She also does sculpture, which is awesome. I think having great people on campus facilitating this William & Mary “personality,” one that’s really open to always helping others and taking people on in mentor-mentee relationships, is good and specific to William & Mary. That also carries over to my peers and friends. In Rocket, I also had a mentor who continues to guide me as a leader and friend. The last Editor-in-Chief, Isabella Arias, started as my editor on the style team when I first joined Rocket, and she was in wholeheartedly in charge of that team. She was super stubborn with her opinions and really strong-willed, and she got things done. She’s definitely a powerhouse and continues to be. She became the editor-in-chief, so it was clear she had what it takes to be an effective leader. But she showed that you can do whatever you decide you want to do, and I think that was something that really helped solidify my confidence in my own leadership abilities.

Considering that William and Mary is a predominantly white institution, what do you think your role is as a woman of color here on campus?

I think a huge thing to think about as a woman of color is definitely how to make things better for future women of color on campus. I think you need to do everything possible to support and change the way the dynamics of the school serve some and not others. We’ve done a lot, but I think that you can never do enough. Instead of just saying we want to do things and saying we support certain movements, it’s about action, so that’s what I think about a lot. I think about how I need to do more, always, and I think that mentorship, taking people on, helping other people and discussing their problems, their doubts–it was something that helped me so much, and hopefully I can be that for someone else. I’m often in a predominantly white space, my high school was extremely white and William & Mary is a PWI, so I think it’s hard sometimes as a female person of color to actually realize how rare it is to be a female person of color in any of your classes and on campus itself. It’s strange honestly. But I think keeping it in mind and being aware and trying to help future generations–I think that’s what’s important. Becoming a leader on campus and being involved so as to create larger platforms for WOC on campus is also a great goal to have. I also think that branching out and learning and talking about other issues, like the oppression of minorities, and intersectionality, is also imperative to a positive culture on campus.

The person who nominated you really spoke to your style of teaching, can you tell me a significant experience that affected the way you approach teaching today?

College was perhaps the hardest four-and-a-half years of my life and so as I went through that experience, often left wondering why it was that difficult, I realized that I did not have an appreciation for how the education would affect me after graduation. Perhaps more importantly, I did not have the support that I needed to evolve both as a professional and as an individual. Now, as a teacher, I take that perspective with me everytime I walk into a classroom because I need to know that you, as students, understand the value that this education will have in your life after William & Mary. It’s not enough for you to understand formulas and frameworks. It’s more important for you to understand the value of those formulas and frameworks, and see how you can use them to change the world in a manner that you believe will make a difference, not just simply in the manner that I believe will make a difference. So I think that’s an important part of my teaching experience. It really is about the students finding their own voice.

So why do you say your college experience was the hardest four years of your life?

I was the first woman to attend college in my family and I attended a college that I could simply afford and, in retrospect, one that was not quite right for me.  So it was difficult; it was difficult from an emotional perspective, a mental perspective, and educational perspective. My first year of college, I had the typical transition challenges and then my friend who lived next door in our residence hall was killed in a car accident just before Thanksgiving.  When I returned home for Christmas, I was hospitalized and did not know if I could even return for my second semester. So, I did not have the most auspicious start as an undergraduate. Unfortunately, the college that I attended did not have a Career Center and did not have a Counseling Center—we had one individual who served as the counselor for careers and anything else you might need. So we were really lacking support outside of the classroom.

However, I did have an amazing professor who saw something in me and allowed me to take her Women in Leadership course even though I was only a freshman.  And that course changed my life because I realized, as a woman, you can do more than you might have expected and you should do more. You’ve been privileged to get this education, now what will you do with this education? And eventually it was through a conversation with her that I decided to transfer colleges, because I realized it was not the college where I needed to be.

The ironic backstory is that this professor was the most popular teacher on campus, but she did not have an academic credential beyond an undergraduate degree.  So even though the student body had voted her as outstanding teacher that year, the college fired her. And it was really devastating to all of us because she was truly fundamental to our education. Credentials may be important, but they do not determine the value of an individual, or the ultimate impact the individual can have on others.  

The primary reason that I took the role here as a Clinical Professor at William & Mary, and gave up tenure at my previous college, was that I wanted to focus on teaching.  Had there been clinical roles 30 years ago, perhaps Professor Pedrick would still be teaching.

As a quick side note the most wonderful part of social media is the connections that we can maintain and, after years of searching, I finally found Professor Pedrick on Facebook.  It was my greatest joy to reach out to her and thank her for making such a difference in my life. During my freshman year, I was suicidal and really did not know how I was going to work through all of the challenges that I had. So it was such a gift to reconnect with her—I actually posted about her on Facebook and asked my former students to also post to show her how many lives she’s touched through how she inspired me.  

That’s amazing! Do you still keep in contact with her?

Yes! I still live for her posts on Facebook! She tells me that she’s proud of me, and that’s as good as it gets for me!

How did she react when she found out you’re teaching here at William & Mary?

She was very proud and so kind on a personal level.  It is not just the professional achievements that she appreciates, but more importantly the person that I have become. As we think about the importance of Humans of William & Mary, she was undoubtedly the human touch that that truly changed the trajectory of of my life.

Do you have any memorable interactions with students or something that just really resonated with you?

Now that I have been teaching for nearly 20 years, there’s not a day that passes that I do not receive a kind word from a current student or former student.  I still have challenging days as a professor, but when you focus upon our inspiring students, I know my role at William & Mary is simply as good as it gets.

Can you tell me about a time when you were inspired by your students?

I am constantly inspired by students!  One particular story that I can share is the response that I received when I first presented a Socialnomics video that highlights facts and figures about how social media and digital tools are changing the world around us. The video features statistics such as 92% of all children under the age of 2 have a digital shadow. And that a goldfish has an attention span of 8 seconds, while humans have an attention span of 7 seconds. I was really excited to introduce my class to this creative video to inspire their thinking about how these factors could affect how we communicate in this evolving world.  So when I asked them what they thought about the video, I was stunned when a student responded, “Dr. Edmiston, I think that was the most depressing video I’ve ever seen.”  And I said to him, “Why? That was not the answer I was expecting!” And he quietly said, “How will I ever compete in that world.” I’m not usually speechless, but I didn’t know how to respond to him. I hadn’t viewed the video like that. And I quickly learned that he was not the only student with these concerns.  So I started to think about how I could take what I’m teaching about marketing success in organization and start teaching how those factors can be applied to achieve success as individuals. And what resulted was a concept that I titled, “Developing POP”— a Professional Online Presence.”  I’ve taught this concept now as far away as China, I taught it last week to the American Marketing Association of Hampton Roads and I am teaching it today to our alumni. That one student interaction, that one engagement, entirely changed how I thought about teaching the fundamentals of digital marketing.

Does that student know you’re doing these POP talks because of that specific interaction?

Yes! He does know and he always smiles and appreciates when I remind him about it. He said it was the least he could do for me.

When you reach students like this one, who are at a loss on how to move forward, that’s what really matters.  However, I have come to the realization that I cannot reach all students, and that was hard when I first arrived at William & Mary. I was just so happy to be here, but the academic year of 2014, was really hard for us.  My first two weeks here, I had more students wanting to meet with me to discuss mental health issues than to discuss academic concerns. And, I never expected that. Of course, if you’re not doing well as a whole person, how will you ever do well in class?  It is so important to focus not just on the mind, but on the body and spirit as well. I really appreciate that William & Mary has developed an approach to integrative wellness; in fact, two of my Marketing Strategy teams this semester focused on the launch of our new Integrative Wellness Center this fall.  

How did you help students when they approached you for mental health issues, even when that isn’t your profession?

Empathy is the foundation of all that I do. And these are the conversations that we need to have, that I want to have. Sometimes people just need to be heard, and know that they matter. And again, I think it’s the greatest attribute of the Humans of William & Mary movement–that we see one another as humans, that we don’t live our lives so quickly to fail to appreciate the beauty in each other.

In my generation, there was a television program called Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood.  You can ask anybody my age raised in the US if they know Mister Rogers and they will respond, “Yes!” He was so kind and wonderful because he made you feel like he heard you, even through the television screen. And he just so happened to have been born in the town of my previous college, so when he passed away, we inherited all of this archives. I often think to myself, what would Mister Rogers do? After 9/11 he developed public service announcements to let children know that they mattered, that they had a voice, that they were loved and supported. And sometimes, that’s all an individual needs to hear and be reminded of.

Of course, if students need greater support, I encourage them to access our Integrative Wellness Center. We seem to recognize the importance of seeking support for our academic needs, but we also need to seek support for our wellness needs. I’m thankful they feel that they can approach me. I tell them on the first day of class, that my door is open.  My students all have my mobile number so they know how to reach me. I’ve never had a student abuse that in all my years of teaching; they’ve always been very respectful. When they reach out to me, I know they really need me.

If you could say anything to the future women at the College, what would you say?

Be bold, be honest, and pursue your passions. Do not feel that you need to be somebody society expects you to be. We will be in a better place in this world when we recognize and respect the value of individual voices and the joy of diversity.

If you could say anything to the future women of William and Mary, what would you say?

I think I would really urge other women to not be afraid to be loud. Because I think that I’ve gotten where I am by being loud and unapologetic, but ironically, it’s something I still struggle a lot with now. I’m afraid to talk a lot, I’m afraid to post on social media a lot, I’m afraid to have my ideas and thoughts out there. It’s scary, but I’m also very proud of all the work I’ve done, and I think that what I’ve accomplished would not have been known by a lot of people if I hadn’t gone on Facebook and Instagram and Snapchat and I hadn’t told people, “Come to this event!” I think that a lot of women are scared to do that because they feel they can come across as being too much, but I  would ask them to challenge that for themselves and tell people what they think and mean and care about. To me, if you care and you’re bold and you feel badass, you’re creating more space for them to care and be badass too.

What’s a personal experience that you could talk about where “being loud” worked in your favor?

I’m a co-founder of HEART, which is a group on campus that advocates for survivors of labor and commercial sex trafficking, and tries to educate our campus about the issue of human trafficking. HEART started after I completed a Branch Out service trip where we worked with women in a rough area of Baltimore who were in after-care situations from human trafficking and prostitution. When five of my friends and I got back on campus, we realized there was no organization here that was addressing such a pervasive and devastating issue that affects so many people and ruins lives, even in Williamsburg. We thought that was weird for such a socially progressive campus, so we started HEART. And going back to owning your voice, when HEART started I became our Public Relations chair. I created our Facebook and Instagram accounts and I posted about all our events. I was online a lot and I was sharing a lot, and it often made me feel like I was seeking so much attention because I was telling people all the time, “Read this,” and “Read that.”, “Come to this” and “Come to that!” I was so worried about it for so long, but now I really don’t feel any guilt about projecting what we do and pushing people to come. It’s funny, now a lot of people come up to me and they’re just  like, “You’re the girl from HEART!” It’s the best.

I just spoke about how I got started in human trafficking advocacy at our Rally Against Trafficking Event last weekend. I put it on my Facebook page–it’s a video of me talking about my experience working with women and what it’s taught me and how I’ve gotten where I am. I was nervous to share that video because I didn’t know it was being taken until one of my co-chairs sent it to me and said, “You should post this.” My immediate reaction was “Nobody wants to see that. That’s so conceited of me to post a video of myself talking.” But she really forced me to do it, and I’m so glad I did. It was real and it was honest and it was me, and I really realized how satisfying it felt to own myself and the amazing opportunities I’ve had.

I’ve just had so many spaces where I can be loud, and while it’s always uncomfortable at first it is always always worth it. I don’t know how personal we want to get with this this and I’m pretty open about it now, but I’m in recovery from anorexia, so I worked on National Eating Disorders Awareness Week at William and Mary this spring, which was incredible. I did a student panel where I talked about my experience with seven other students. A lot of my friends came to it and a lot of my teammates came to it, which honestly gave me chills. A lot of my teammates had a lot of questions and wanted to just talk to me about it and we actually ended up doing a discussion on my team about food and loving your body, which is something I’m so passionate about. I’ve been loud in that aspect and it has been such a gift–I’ve really tried to help my teammates wherever they are in their recoveries and just tell them, “You’re an athlete. You need to actually really need to take care of yourself and fuel your body and your soul.” I cannot emphasize how important that is for women.

That’s really amazing. I’m speechless.

Thank you so much, it’s so weird, a lot of people come up to me and they’re like, “It’s so cool you did that. You’re so inspirational.” It can still make me feel like a bit of a fraud because I am honestly such a nerd and I don’t have my life together so I laugh when people tell me, “You’re so inspirational” and I’m just like, “That’s so nice of you, but also like, I have nothing together.” I need to acknowledge that imperfection too.

But I also think that’s a really nice perspective to hear.

It’s so nice but I feel like I don’t deserve it and I want to deflect it and say, “Someone else is also doing this really cool thing! Go talk to them!” because really so many people are on this campus. I don’t know, I just feel like I get a lot of undue attention and I’m just like, “Don’t put it on me. There are other people!” but I’m starting to realize how much of a common sentiment that is, and how great it can be to combat that insecurity for yourself.

Listening to all this, you’ve definitely supported the college in so many ways, so kind of on the other side of that, how do you think the college supports you?

I really like that question, honestly, it’s given me a lot of really weird coincidental opportunities where I’ve been able to blend my interests unexpectedly. I’m a double major and one of my majors is Hispanic Studies, so I studied abroad in Spain and did a research project on sex trafficking in Spain, and I investigated what it looks like in Spain, that was so cool. William and Mary has given me all of these opportunities to engage in activism but in the end it’s really given me all these fantastic people I’ve gotten to reach out to and connect with.

I think I’m in a position now where I really tried to seize everything around me, so now it’s kind of like a full circle effect where opportunities are seizing me. I’ve gotten messages on Facebook where other students will write, “Hey do this thing. Hey, speak on this panel.” And I’m like, “Me? You want me to speak on a panel?” But it’s so so nice. That’s how I heard about this opportunity, my teammates told me, “we nominated you for this Humans of William and Mary!” And I was so appreciative, I nearly cried.

Definitely. I think that’s really important that you’re given the opportunity to speak out.

Absolutely, speaking out has been everything. Plus aside from all the work, it’s such a beautiful school and I walk around and I’m always like, “This isn’t real. I’ve met the most incredible friends here and the best people that have saved me.”

So on one last thing, what kind of new perspective do you think you are bringing on campus now and you will continue to bring?

I think that I’d like to dig into the idea of what it means to be too loud, but also how you can be intersectional and intentional in what you care about, and you can be powerful by being vulnerable.  I wear this ampersand ring on my index finger, because it represents my recovery and reminds me of how far I’ve come. I worked with a eating disorder treatment group where we talked a lot about the power of “and”–like how you can be two things at once. I’m a runner, so I really like to work hard and push my body, so I think that you can be an athlete and tough and gritty and also be very feminine.  Or you can be very socially active and be loud. That’s okay. You can give yourself permission to be both things. There’s this amazing interview I watch of this creator named Elisa Goodkind where she says “It’s almost like I love life too much.” And I completely relate to that. I love life too much and I love people too much, but I’d like to keep challenging that for myself and for other women. But you can be vulnerable AND too passionate AND uncertain about it all, it’s all this beautiful mess.

When did you graduate?

I graduated in May 2017.

Okay, cool. What were you involved in while you were here?

Um. Not much. I was in a social sorority. I worked a lot. I worked in Swemromas and I worked for Phone-A-Thon. I worked for the Flat Hat for the sex column, “Behind Closed Doors.” I think that might be it.

Why do you say that’s not a lot?

Well, it’s not like the William & Mary way of being “over-involved,” I guess.

It sounds like a lot to me. Because I feel like all of those things are so involved in themselves and they’re not just things that pop up every once in a while.

And there were things that I was involved in for a while. And obviously working was a big priority when I was at school because I needed to, you know, support myself. So I wish I could’ve gotten involved in different things and other things, but I guess hindsight is 20-20, right?

I gotcha. And have you taken that hindsight at all into what you’re doing now?

I think it’s definitely influenced it a bit. I think now I don’t need to censor myself or be a certain kind of version of myself because I think there’s a lot of pressure to fit into a very specific box of what it means to be a student at William & Mary. And it’s very different working here, that that pressure doesn’t exist. So, it’s very nice. Or at least where I work it doesn’t exist. It’s not that kind of over-involvement, you know, you need to be positive about William & Mary. William & Mary’s not perfect, so you shouldn’t be completely positive about William & Mary, which is nice, I think.

Did you want to stay here?

I did not want to stay here. But the job itself was, I think, too good to pass up. My job is coming to an end in July, so I’ve been here for about a year. I work in special collections and it’s a year long fellowship. The goal is to expose people from underrepresented backgrounds to library as a career. And I don’t live in Williamsburg, either; I live in Richmond. I commute because I wanted to spend as little time as possible here.

But it’s definitely been very much a blessing. Especially since it’s coincided with the fiftieth. I’ve been working on 50th. 100th. It’s been a really nice time to be working in the archives, for sure.

I know you started your own project, right?  

The one I did is farther back by the bathrooms, by Read & Relax. Which was really great. They knew they wanted to do an exhibit, they asked me if I wanted to do it, and I said yes and I got a lot of freedom to do what I wanted which is really, really nice. And so the exhibit focuses not just on the three women, but the whole history of African Americans at William & Mary. So, from slavery to, you know, segregation, massive resistance, desegregation, and then, today, ‘cause you know, nothing’s perfect. You’re still working towards a lot of things.

And that was really eye-opening. And I think also I learned so much that I didn’t know as a student. There’s a lot of injustices that happened here that nobody talks about and people just don’t know about. So getting to learn about that was really freeing because it kind of oriented me in where I am and who I am at this school; whereas, I think being somebody who is from a marginalized community, it’s kind of strange to exist in such a predominately white space all the time when there’s a lot of very predominant white histories being told … you know everyone loves Thomas Jefferson here, like maybe a little bit too much in my opinion. Like people really, really like him. And like that kind of stuff is really jarring to experience. Even if you don’t realize it or not, it’s kind of strange.

I am always interested in knowing, once you have this knowledge or understanding of reality, but a new perspective of this reality … What do you think is your best way of using that knowledge?

Well for me it’s been a very important reminder that the stories that aren’t getting told are the ones that need to be told the loudest. There are so many things. Like I learned only a couple of weeks ago that in the late 1800s a bunch of William & Mary — white, you know, male students — beat up some freed black man that was just living in Williamsburg. Didn’t get expelled, didn’t get in trouble for it. Nothing happened. But the man was hospitalized, like, it was awful. And it mirrors so closely the things that are happening today it feels wrong to not talk about it. And I think it helps to orient you because you know that there is a longer history. It’s not like you’re the first person walking on this campus. This is a long history of people coming before you, which I think, even if the way that they were there before you isn’t the same, it’s how …. Sorry this is all very jumbled sounding … But I think it kind of grounds you in a sense of reality, for one because you are learning about things that you didn’t know. You understand that there is a legacy here — there’s an ancestry here that’s not by blood, but it’s certainly there. And it’s a nice reminder that you need to be telling these stories. I think it’s freeing in a way. To at least know. Know about the things that have happened.

It’s cool because you seem like a person, correct me if I’m wrong, but somebody who is very focused on the other, or just like in your work here, it’s very much focused on others and telling their stories and everything. Like Humans likes to do, too. I guess what about your story has impacted you today?

I think it’s given me a very interesting perspective. I’m biracial, so I grew up with something that I think is really unique because I don’t think a lot of … I think especially at a school like this you have a lot of cases where white students may not have had black friends or black people might not have had white friends and so I have this kind of perspective from both sides. Like I am very close with everyone in my family and to have that kind of proximity in a time where we are so polarized by race, I think was really unique growing up. And like to have now, I grew up in very white spaces, and so I like to say that I didn’t become black until I turned like 18 because I didn’t realize: one, I didn’t think it was something I should have pride in and two, like something that defined me even if I had these white characteristics. Like I seemed white. All my friends in high school and before were like, “Oh you’re so white.” And everyone calls the black kid who doesn’t like rap music an “oreo” or something like that. And so I think it’s an interesting perspective. I often beat myself up because I think I was afraid to exist in black spaces for so much of my life. I was much more comfortable in white spaces. It’s been interesting.

That’s really important. Honestly for me, any person’s life is so important, like where they are. Everything is significant to me in some sort of way. That’s really interesting to hear especially because I grew up in very white spaces and was one of those people who didn’t have many friends of other races because I was in a very white community. And I am trying to do certain things right now to try and really emphasize that diversity is so important in just making us all empathetic and understanding of one another. And so, yeah, it’s really interesting to hear your story.

I think empathy, I think that’s definitely what I’m trying to articulate. I think a base of so many issues right now is the lack of empathy. And I think diversity of opinions and diversity of just people and experiences leads to empathy. Empathy is something that we need desperately.

So you’re more comfortable now … I don’t know is there anything with your identity … do you still struggle in any way because you were saying you kinda beat yourself up for having not embraced part of yourself when you were younger, but have you been able to move forward from that?

I think so. I think this year and being able to work so closely with the 50th has definitely been very validating. You know like, being in these places that are mostly black for events for this and alumni coming back and talking to them. I feel like it has made me realize that I had definitely been able to be a part of this community. You know, it was not like I was ever barred from it even though I felt like I was. And I also think, I mean, it’s really important for all marginalized communities to support each other. So, I think that fear is maybe, kinda silly, but yeah, I think it’s been validating and I think especially working in a library – I’m going to library school next year – that field is really white, so I’m also really thankful to have grown up and been in such white spaces for so long because I know how to navigate them. In my social sorority I felt like I was always kind of a very loud voice for things I didn’t like. Which I think, you know, was maybe a but annoying but I think it taught me to not be afraid to speak up or, you know, make people uncomfortable because being uncomfortable is incredibly important to learning and growing. So I think I know how to ruffle feathers in a good way and help make those spaces better, more inclusive.

I guess what I want to ask is, what do you do in your free time because it sounds like you’re just doing so many wonderful things in terms of bringing awareness to others and just, like, developing as a human being. I don’t know … do you relax?

So sad, I don’t, I feel like.

No, that’s perfectly valid, too.

Well I think another part of being someone who graduated from William & Mary is learning how to have free time. Like I didn’t understand how to do that. Like I still kinda don’t. Like I go home and watch Netflix, but sometimes I’m like, oh, I need to have a hobby. I don’t have that yet. It’s, like, a very weird thing. I mean I really like being outside. I think that’s a whole another aspect of diversity, inclusion, and breaking down barriers that’s really important to me because nature belongs to everybody and it doesn’t just belong to white people who go glamping. Like, that’s not true.

And it’s important, you know, global warming. We just had Earth Day. I think everybody’s thinking about it. Yeah, I guess that’s what I do in my free time. I go outside. I like being outside. And I’m very interested in the different ways different cultures connect to nature. I really find herbalism and natural medicine very interesting. This is, like, totally tangential, but…

No, that’s so cool!

Because I think we have a problem in society where just, like, pop pills all the time. I think it’s really easy. I think it’s necessary in a lot of ways. Like I have mental health problems, like I take medication and I’m not afraid to say that. But I think, you know, there’s some issues we have as a, you know, like Big Pharma …  all of that business.

Oh yeah. That’s a huge topic with my friends.

Do you have a specific location that comes to mind when you think of going outside?

I mean, I spend a lot of time just on my porch. Wouldn’t be a favorite place. My family really likes national parks as well. We went to a lot of national parks. So I went to Xion this summer and we hiked through the Narrows, where you’re hiking in the water in the river. And it’s just like the most beautiful experience you could possibly have. It’s really just like … after that I was just like, you know, nature’s therapy. It’s totally true. Because it feels cleansing and your endorphins are going, you feel like you are accomplishing something, and it’s fun. And there was a community aspect because there is a bunch of us trying to just trek through this water without, like falling all over ourselves. Swimming under boulders and stuff. It was just great.

So did you know everybody? You said you went with you family but was it just a random group that came together?

It was my family went and it was just so busy. People were very helpful. It was just like very nice. I guess … well it’s not in the Midwest. I was going to say it was the Midwest mentality.

I always find it funny when I go places and people are just really, really nice. On the street, like…

I’m from up north, so. I’m from Massachusetts. So coming down here I was literally going to Food Lion and the cashier was like, “Hey! How are you doing?” Like all that stuff. Like really engaging. And at home it’s just like, “Hi. How are you today?” Like, kinda like the monotone and beep, check the next thing. People fill the spaces here.

Where in Massachusetts are you from?

I’m from southeast Mass, so I’m 45 minutes south of Boston. I’m really close to Providence, Rhode Island.

That’s where I’m going to school, in Boston.

Oh where?

Simmons College.

Oh that’s awesome!

Trying to currently figure out the whole housing thing. It’s impossible.

Yeah, I have a friend who goes to Simmons currently. She might be graduating this year.

Is she undergrad?

Yeah, she’s going for PT type of stuff. They have a great nursing program there, too. I don’t know. Actually, I only know two people there now that I’m thinking about it.

Yeah, I had never heard about it until I started looking at schools and undergrad is all women which I think is awesome. I was really close to going to Mt. Holyoake. Mostly because it looked like Harry Potter, but also the all women thing was nice, too.

The Harry Potter thing was definitely something that I was into as well. Yeah, what made you choose here? Was it in-state?

No I’m actually, I’m from out of state. I’m from Maryland. I visited here for the first time when I was in, like seventh grade and my brother was looking – my brother is three years older than me – and a bunch of us came down with family friends. We came to visit the school and it was hot, I was tired, and I didn’t want to be here. And then my brother went here. He like came for admitted students day, stayed the night with a student, and the next morning was like, “We’re paying my deposit. I’m going here.” And then the next four years of my life was like me coming here twice a year. And it just kind of made sense.

I never really wanted to be under my brother’s shadow in high school but then when I got to college I was like, “No, I’m okay with this. This is fine.” Yeah, and I think looking back maybe I should’ve broadened my horizons a little bit more. Not to say that William & Mary isn’t a great school. It has given me a lot of opportunities. But I also don’t think it’s fair of me to say that I couldn’t be where I am today without William & Mary. The growth that happens in school, or the growth that I had in undergrad, I think I would’ve had elsewhere. Because I think it had more to do with personal challenges than getting an education, necessarily.

I learned a lot and, like I’m glad I learned a lot, but I’ve learned a lot more outside the classroom than I ever did inside the classroom.

Yeah. What’s one of those things that comes to mind in learning outside of the classroom?

Oh my gosh. I think I’ve learned so much of how to be a good person. I was really mean in high school. And I think I’ve kind of learned a lot about intent versus outcome. So just because you don’t intend to something harmful and hurtful doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to be the outcome and that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t apologize necessarily.

I think I’ve also learned the value of an apology. I think that’s a lot more important than people realize it is. Because it helps the healing process. And it helps to build bridges and it helps people to understand each other. I think that’s a lot of so much that I’ve learned – I’ve met so many different people here. And so I’ve learned just a lot of how to be a good person to so many different people and what it means to be a friend and the power of friendship. That sounds like, so lame, but I think it’s true.

Yeah, apologizing has a lot of power. And you have to mean it.

Yeah, I definitely think understanding different people and understanding myself. And I was a film major. I learned a lot about movies. That was cool. I really enjoyed it. But yeah, I think there’s so much to be said for challenging yourself in ways that aren’t just academic. Especially if college is supposed to be this wonderfully transformative thing that I think people make it out to be. They need to seek out those tough conversations. Those harder moments. Because otherwise, you know, where are you going to grow?

Yeah, because this is such a study school I feel like people are in the books all the time and they don’t have the opportunity to have the social growth. And others do. Sometimes it’s a personal type of thing, but definitely think that more is learned outside of the classroom.

I think the only place maybe where … I’m thinking about I remember taking an Intro to Gender Studies class and that was probably when it came to like the kind of interactions that you’re going to have in the real world. That was probably one of the more beneficial classes. Because, again, it was just so many different people trying to fulfill a GRE or a GER … I’m thinking about grad school. But coming together and talking about these issues and even if we all kind of thought of ourselves as liberal or progressive or accepting, we all had different perspectives on what that meant. That was really interesting.

Words are so funny when people see them differently and how they’ve evolved.

Oh definitely. They’re very different. Like I see that, too, at my job. Like there are so many people from different backgrounds, different age groups even and certain words have different weight and meaning and it’s really strange but interesting.

Another random question, but what’s a very “you” thing to do? Like something that’s very personal to you in either how you act or something that you say a lot or focus on?

I’ve been doing this thing a lot lately where I just like … actually, no I’ve always done this. When I’m in Aromas and there’s music playing I dance. I can’t help it. I’m not, like, a dancer. I don’t particularly think I’m very good. But I walked into work this morning and walked into my friend’s office and started playing music – Drake – and started dancing because it’s just stress relief. It’s good. I like that. That’s probably a good one for me.

I also lay on the floor a lot when I’m stressed out. That’s a whole nother thing. That’s the best way to refocus is to be, like, horizontal for five seconds. And then get back up and see the world vertically again.

Wait, I like that. I like that a lot.

One of the questions we are asking everybody as a part of this project is, “If you had anything to say to the future women of William & Mary, what would that be?”

That’s such a good question. I think it would be to not be afraid to be loud. And to speak up and to be, you know, all of the bad, bad words. All the bad words. Aggressive. Or angry, or you know, a bitch. I don’t know if I can say bitch, but …

You can say whatever you want to say.

But to not be afraid to dispel the fear that you are going to fall into a female stereotype. Because if you are doing something that you truly believe it right, that’s not important. And it should really, ultimately at the end of the day what people think of you is not important. It feels important. It’s always going to feel important. But it’s not. It’s about, you know, holding yourself to your values and holding others to your values as well and not being afraid to be yourself. And yeah, be loud.

I think that’s really important. Yeah.

Did you have any people in your life that helped you in being loud or just learning to be yourself?

I think my parents, definitely. Yeah. Definitely my parents. Especially my dad. I remember my dad being like, once telling me about when he was in college – my dad’s black and he was the only black kids at his college, and like he had this professor. He was so incredibly racist and he was just like, “I don’t care, I came to class every day. Did exactly what I needed to do and I wasn’t afraid to be like, ‘You’re a bigot.’” And I was like, okay. If you’re not going to stand down in the face of something that’s just, like truly wrong, yeah. I think that’s good. And you know he’s never afraid to be like, “No that’s BS.” So it’s helpful to have those examples. Not afraid to have an argument.

I’m glad you had that role model in your life.

And I think in my family, too, I have a lot of really strong — very strong, brave women. Between my mom, both my grandmothers, you know, all of my aunts have just been, really like they’ve hit some tough stuff and still made it through which I think is incredible.

In your journey through life so far, what has been something that you’ve been most proud of?

Okay, two. I think one of them is going to graduate school, ‘cause like I didn’t really want to do that four months ago and I didn’t really think I could. But I think the more … that’s like career. And I’m really proud that … I was thinking about and and I’m going to have two degrees by 2020 and I’m gonna have my master’s. I think I’ll be the first in my generation of my family to have one, which is, like, nice bragging rights. But I’m proud of myself because I feel like I’m really working towards not just my own goals, but for my family. And I’m, you know, contributing to something greater than myself. Which feels really good.

I think especially a lot, I mean just growing up, I think especially in black communities and black families, doing things … fighting for better situations. Not to say that I had a bad situation and I wouldn’t be where I am today without my family. But, like, you know. Like my ancestors were slaves and it’s cool to think like, well, one: I’ve graduated and done well and have been employed by an institution that owned slaves, which feels like a nice FU to them. I sure there’s many, many a white man rolling over in their grave over all of it. It feels good to accomplish something that they never could. For myself and for them.

I’m also really proud of myself for finally getting help for my anxiety and depression. That was a big one. I’m like a year and a half out from doing that and it feels really good. I think it’s really hard, especially for people here, to feel like they can or they should. And, yeah. I’m really proud of myself for being able to have done that and to have those tough conversations with my family and my parents. And to realize that, at the end, I had nothing to be afraid of because I have very supportive people in my lif

I know it’s easy for me, coming from a family who has all gone to college, to forget about doing things for them, or seeing how I can make their lives better. I don’t know, there’s kind of like an expectation, like, “oh, we’ll support you,” and whatever, but really you taking the initiative to make sure you are leaving a legacy behind for those who have come before you is beautiful. And yeah, no that’s really cool.

I’ve done a lot of ancestry work in the past year and to think about all of what my family has gone through and all they’ve worked towards and how they’ve been … I think definitely politically in the United States we’re at a time where history is starting to repeat itself again. We’re moving through, like, a new civil rights movement in and of itself. And so to think that, like … my dad was born in Greensboro, North Carolina months after the Greensboro sit-ins began. They were in the thick of it. My grandma’s told me stories about accidentally driving on the wrong road and ending up in the heart of KKK country. And like, to think about those kinds of things and that my grandma still graduated from college and was a founder of the Black Nurses’ Caucus and like, did all of these incredible things. And I was like, well, if she can do that, then I can do this. And if I can look back and think of these people, I don’t know … they’re in the back of my mind a lot.

Your experiences here … Did you know what to expect when coming here for your fellowship? Because you weren’t necessarily sure what you were going to do. What were your emotions like when arriving here?

It was weird and hard and I think I had a lot of trouble at first feeling emotionally connected to the work I was doing. Like, I was really holding back for a while. It was weird; we were gone for like, the fellow and myself, for a month. We celebrated, we were gone for a month. We came back in June and it was, you know, the first year doing this program, the beginning of this whole celebration that I initially had some pretty negative feelings about. I was really worried it was going to be this really performative like, “Look at us. 50 years ago we, you know, finally integrated the college. Like how cool are we for doing that thing?” When it’s like, no that was 50 years ago. It should’ve happened much far before then. And it had been happening in the U.S. before then, so, I don’t know. I had a lot of very negative feelings and it also felt really lonely because I was like, here with all of these people who are so much older than me and I felt really young and naive and I remember being really emotional the first day of classes because I was like, I’m here again. But, like, I’m not here and it’s just very strange. And it was really hard at first. But I think I finally, like … my therapist told me, “Mallory you need to be emotionally invested in this or else you are going to hate yourself for the rest of the year.” And I was like, oh crap, you’re right. And I think I found ways to get excited. I think that in the work that I was doing I found ways to get hype about it, which is good. And I think the initial – I figured we should meet in front of the thing because everything I’m doing is involved in it, but whatever – when they did the unveiling of the mural, I think that really solidified some of the importance of my job and the excitement started to … started to actually feel excited. And it was also just really wonderful because my family still lives in Maryland and my exhibit wasn’t up yet, but my dad drove all the way down here for the unveiling of the mural. Which was just so sweet. Him to be so willing, for literally just a day – came for three hours and drove right back up – was literally just so nice. And I was like, well if he’s going to be here supporting me, I’m gonna have to get involved with this, like, actually.

It’s cool that… I think a lot of people just write things off right from the bat and don’t change their mindset, but you really did change your mindset.

Yeah, and it’s been very reaffirming, you know. Definitely was because there were people changing my mind. That there were people who were really like, no we’re here to do what’s right and the 50th Committee’s still meeting even though the year’s about to end and there’s, like, momentum. Like this isn’t just going to be one year and then we’re going to forget about these three women again for another 50. Like it’s not going to happen this time. It’s just really nice.

I think, like, for me, actually being able to connect what’s happening around here, like history to reality, is a huge thing. And so, like, it’s cool to see your process, like actually connecting with your work and emotionally investing yourself in it … it’s just like … yeah. It’s hard to do sometimes.

Yeah, I think so. And I think there’s an expectation that maybe you shouldn’t be emotionally invested in what you do. And I think that’s kind of like, important for what you do. And I’m excited to see what the 100th will hold. Because it’s a lot farther out. Like I don’t want to speak out of turn, but I’m wondering if any of the actual … like how far back be have living people. Like I’m sure we don’t have anybody from the 100th class, like the first class, because that was literally a hundred years ago. Those people would be like a hundred twenty-two.

Yeah, actually, I don’t know either. That would be interesting to see.

But they definitely… it’ll be interesting to see what goes on for that celebration. I’ll have to ask. I know people in the community but I just, I don’t ask things.

Sometimes you kind of just forget about it, yeah.

What do you think will keep you doing as you continue on in your education and learning, and just like, activism and awareness?

I think surrounding myself with people who also want to make the world a better place, which sounds like this incredibly hard task, but you know, butterfly effect. You make one small difference and it changes so much. To have other people who haven’t gotten to that burnout … I think a lot of us who believe really passionately in things and in causes will at one point experience burnout, but you have to learn to rest, not give up, and to surround myself with people who understand that concept and other people who are willing to uplift each other for these causes is really important. I think it’s who you surround yourself with. Yeah.

Do you ever find moments where you don’t have that momentum feeling?

Yeah. Oh yeah. There’s been some really challenging times. I think in this year of work, in college, where I really just want to wipe my hands and walk away. But that’s not always the best option. And it should be the best option. If it is, you should probably reevaluate your options. But, I mean, it’s hard not to. We’re living in a political climate where it feels … you really want to give up. And ignorance does seem like bliss at a lot of times, but it’s, you know … you can’t. It just doesn’t seem like an option. Or maybe it shouldn’t be. Even if it’s not you fighting for that cause, you should be able to patch the torch to leave a legacy that other people continue on.

Yeah, especially imagining how much everybody else has done and to just stop after other people have done so much … The people who have shown up for so many events this year and have represented not only themselves but the greater community to which they … I don’t know … served or were a vision for? Like sometimes people have different roles and sometimes you have to be a symbol but also be yourself, too.

Yeah, I think that when the burnout happens it’s about the evolving, shifting, changing if that role no longer suits you.

What piece of advice would you give to future William and Mary women?

Be bold. I think it’s very easy for women to be intimidated into silence, especially in such an institution as William & Mary where there are so many brilliant individuals. There were so many times in class where I would have something to say but I would be too scared to say it. I did not trust my intelligence and strength as a person and student to be bold and just speak up. My other piece of advice is to seek out mentorship and presence from female faculty and staff ASAP. There are so many female professors and staff that I am in awe of their strength and brilliance; and I feel like, with all of the professors and staff that I consider to be my loves/mentors, I know that it took me some time to have the courage to speak to them on a one-on-one basis. So my advice is to tell the little devil to be quiet and be bold. Speak up, make empowering relationships, and just get out of your comfort zone.

In your interview, you spoke passionately about your research on disabilities in Latin America (I believe, I don’t quite remember the specifics). Could you describe this and how your personal experience affected this research?

So basically, this past year I was doing an internship for U.S. Embassy in Mexico City, where in the fall I looked at the institutionalization of women with disabilities in Mexico City. Institutionalization itself threatens the wellbeing of persons with disabilities (PWD) as it isolates PWD in Mexico from society and leaves them vulnerable to abuse in protective institutions. Because women with disabilities (WWD) face discrimination for their ability and gender, they are vulnerable to greater physical and sexual abuse and limited sexual and reproductive rights. The Mexican government prompts this abuse by assisting in forced sterilization, funding these institutions, and providing insufficient resources to reintegrate WWD after their trauma at protective institutions. The community does not provide resources to reintegrate the patients into society, condemning them to a lifetime in the protective institution. And what’s unfortunate is that no resources exist to support the unique needs of women with disabilities as sexual assault survivors who also have disabilities, leaving them vulnerable to trauma and nowhere to go but a different institution. So the cycle of sexual violence and human rights violations continue against them. What I learned most about this experience is that we don’t often talk about the intersectionality of gender and disability/other personal identities with disabilities. What I gained most from this research is that it is so easy to discriminate against disability, and when combined with other marginalized identities, these individuals are further vulnerable to discrimination and oppression. I’ve been seeing more discussion about the experience of people with disabilities recently, but I think there needs to be more talk and more action, especially with how disability connects with intersectional identities.

What has been the greatest challenge for you as a woman at William and Mary?

Feeling like what I cared about is important within the campus community and to the greater society. I think it was difficult for me as a woman to stand out and be comfortable with my voice and the fact that my interests were not necessarily the norm, especially within my discipline. My region of interest was Latin America, partly because of my Cuban identity and partly because I was inspired by its culture and history; I received a lot of poo poo about it because several people do not think the region is strategically important. And then senior year I was interested in combining L.A. with my passion for disability rights. Disability rights is another topic that I feel like not many people care about given that the campus itself is inaccessible and so many people execute ableist actions without disregard for its consequences (I’m looking at you, people who park in handicap spots without a permit). So it took me a while to feel like what I cared about mattered. And I think that always hearing some of the men in our school speak their opinions so loudly and tell me that what I cared about didn’t matter, especially in regard to Latin America, that it made me question if I should care about what I cared about. But now those men are on my list of people that I must do better than in life.

What piece of advice would you give to future William and Mary women?

Learn from the women who came before you. Each generation has its challenges, and oftentimes those challenges are very similar. It’s helpful (I think) to know you are not alone.

In your interview, you were so passionate about your work, and the “people” you meet while working. Can you describe how you approach working in the archives, and how the people you’re reading about come alive to you? To go along with that, who are some of your favorite people you’ve “met” through working in the archives?

Given the immense volume of record material, combined with limited staff resources – it isn’t possible to read every document, much as I might want to.  Sometimes, however, a person’s papers or the records of a specific office dictates taking a closer look. In that regard, it’s easy to get lost in someone’s life, where you may be like “I wonder what happens next,” “what happened to so-and-so,” etc. For some collections, I felt a connection to the long-deceased person whose letters I’m reading.  For others, I may have finished the project not liking the person at all. One of my favorite W&M folks is Earl Gregg Swem, for whom the main library is named. It’s through his efforts that we have a Special Collections at W&M. He was also on the committee which raised the funds for the College Mace. The Mace is my favorite W&M artifact, and it pleases me to no end knowing he had a hand in its creation as well as being the person entrusted with its care. The Mace has been on display in the Library since it was given to the W&M students at Charter Day in 1923.

What has been the greatest challenge for you as a woman working at William and Mary, and in archival research in general?

I feel lucky to work in Swem among a lot of smart, talented women.  In regards to archives, the reality is that vast majority of the institution’s records, especially those from leadership offices, are from the perspective of men.  It’s much more challenging to find the female voice within the institution’s records. That is all due to change, however, considering there are more women in leadership roles here than ever before.

What makes you a woman of William and Mary?

As a member of the St. Andrews program, I’ve only actually been here for two years and so have only been a woman of William & Mary for two years of my life, as a freshman and now as a senior. I was abroad for my sophomore and junior years, meaning I came here as a freshman and didn’t know what I was doing and now I’m a senior ready to leave and make her mark on the world. So, all the in-between growth didn’t happen here, but ironically, I think that’s made me view womanhood in two very different ways, because when you’re starting out, you’re so uncertain. You start freshman year and you’re not really sure what you’re about or what you’re interested in, so I think at that time, I look back on it with a lot of regret and I think there are a lot of ways in which I could have done better with my identities and done better to be more engaged with campus but I didn’t. So I think freshman year, I let myself be defined by a lot of other things, like I didn’t really make an identity for myself or I always kept looking for one thing to latch onto and the big lesson that I learned with time was that I didn’t have to keep looking, that I could be a number of things and could be multifaceted and still be Meher. So this year is probably the year I’d say I’ve become not just a true William & Mary student but I think very very proud of womanhood as a concept and as something that I can allow to blossom in different spaces and not feel that is has to be restricted to one area. So I’d say for me, a woman of William & Mary is someone who’s not defined by some boundaries, it’s someone whose colors bleed, it’s someone who is many many different types of a person and I think there is no one Woman of William & Mary – I think womanhood as a concept is something that is freeing because it doesn’t have the restrictions of masculinity and manhood and what those things mean in the modern age but it’s also something that, because of that, becomes a reception point for negative spaces. So for example, if manhood is all about being strong or being set in certain paths or viewing the world in a certain way, then womanhood becomes a contrast, and that’s often been what upholds the patriarchy, because women have often been relegated to being the “other” to men, but I think, and this is not my idea, many many feminists have thought this before me, that you can take that and you can make it something triumphant. And you can allow that negative space to be filled with what you wish it to be because it does not need to be delineated in the same way manhood is. So I think William & Mary by nature, being an institution that encourages the study of liberal arts and encourages different types of people to come here, has allowed me to see myself as a woman who can blossom in different spaces on this campus, which I think I can at least, now that senior year is ending, say I have done a lot better than I did freshman year.

So what have you gotten involved with on campus?

So this year, and my freshman year I guess, I’ve been very much involved with culturally-based organizations. That was one major side of identity that I started out with. I was like, “okay, the first thing that I see about myself is my race, and how am I going to engage with that?” Because for a long time in my childhood and in my teen years I didn’t really engage with it and I tried to sort of shut those things out, especially when I thought of myself as a woman. It seemed to me that womanhood should be uncomplicated and not have race attached to it, or religion or ethnicity or language or immigration status, those kinds of things. In high school I couldn’t reconcile those two so in college I was like, “okay I’ll pick my race over the other things.” And I tried to just first join culturally-based organizations but I always found something lacking in just that. So I was a part of the Middle Eastern Student Association for awhile, even though I’m not from the Middle East I kind of ended up in that slot. I was a part of the South Asian Student Association, and I did both of those things, and then I got more involved with religiously-based organizations, and this year I’ve been a huge part of the Asian American Student Initiative which is a lot of social justice work which I think, of all the clubs I’ve been a part of, has been the most fulfilling. And I think, like I said, what I finally managed to wager this year is seeing how womanhood can be a part of all of those things – that I can be a South Asian woman and an activist woman and those things aren’t necessarily separate or compartmentalized.

You mentioned that the Asian American Student Initiative was the one that was the most fulfilling. How did it make you feel fulfilled?

I think there are a number of things that AASI does well, and it’s not necessarily AASI member, like there is an archetypal South Asian Student Association member and there is an archetypal member of a number of other clubs on campus. And that doesn’t necessarily have to be the true person who joins it but it’s the vision you have, so like you have a vision of what a sorority girl is, you have a vision of what a member of Sikh might be. But because AASI really has nothing to define it beyond Asian, which is extremely nebulous as a concept, and activism, you could be anyone and be a part of it and I think in being presented that blank canvas, I have been allowed, as a member of that club, to shape more wholly who I’m going to be as an AASI member, and then I never have to feel like I’m failing to meet the standards of what a member of AASI should be whereas in another organization I’d often feel I wasn’t meeting them.

So you also mentioned that you have some regrets about  your freshman year here. Why is that?

I mean freshman year for everybody is, you know, it’s a time of discovery. I guess what I regret is…I think it’s very much tied to this question of womanhood and selfhood. It’s that I…I felt like I wanted to belong to something and I felt like to belong to something I had to contort myself to fit what the ideal version of that kind of club was. So because clubs are often places where you find yourself on campus, especially in a place like William & Mary where students are super involved, I thought to myself, “okay the archetypal member of blank club is like this, I need to shape myself to be that way.” And obviously, you know, if you bend yourself to that point you could break. Because you will no longer be your authentic self and obviously those quests are also futile because in the end you realize that you never felt like you were belonging, you just made yourself feel more excluded. So I think that was my big regret, and I think going abroad kind of helped with understanding myself a bit more.

What do you think changed when you went abroad? Did you get involved with different things, was it just being away from the states that made you grow? What was it about being abroad?

I think it was a couple things. One, I was in Britain, that’s where the St. Andrew’s program is, in Scotland. One thing is I used to live in Britain when I was younger and personally, for me, it’s a huge part of my identity. I think in my heart I identify more as a British Asian than I would an Asian American or Indian American. So I think I had wanted to return there for a long time, and returning to that space and being around other British Asians and being in Britain again was very joyous for me because it was like in some sense I could finally connect to a path that felt a lot more real to me than America did. And I think understanding one’s past, even if it is an idealized or constructed version of it, is a huge part of finding yourself because if you can tie yourself to these roots or your authentic origin, then you can kind of move forward. So joining clubs over there that allowed me to connect with other British Asians was a great way of having people I could have more authentic discussion with about who I was and what my childhood made me than maybe South Asians here could do for me, and that’s not their fault, it’s just naturally who I am. One big thing was there was a feminist club in St. Andrews that I joined and I know we don’t really have a feminist club here, I guess the closest we have is Vox maybe, and that was actually a huge part of understanding womanhood because that club in St. Andrews was very white and very very upper class which is naturally St. Andrews, it’s a very elite institution, it’s mostly rich students, so because I joined that space and I was really interested in feminist discourse but everyone around me was so unlike me in everything except being a woman, I really began to ask myself about “what is womanhood in comparison to all these other people?” And then I was like, “Maybe I should bring back all of these other identities that matter to me and bring them together.”

Wow, that sounds like a great experience! So are you hoping to end up back in Britain eventually?

Yes. I want to be in London. I interned there this summer at a law firm so I’m hoping to work in a law firm there.

How many years did you live there?

So in St. Andrews I was there for two years, and then as a kid it was a good portion of my childhood, from age 5 to my early teens.

So that definitely shaped who you are then?

I think so.

Okay so this is kind of related to questions I’ve already asked, but if you could talk to a future Woman of William & Mary, what would you say to her?

Like an incoming student?

Yeah, incoming student, a year from now or twenty years from now. What would you tell her?

I would tell them that there’s an amazing strength in being soft. Empowering women has become an obvious part of the zeitgeist now and everyone wants to carry around a feminist bag. They want to talk about empowering women, label everything she does as empowering – from how she wears her hair to her lipstick to how she walks. Unfortunately, the movement has been somewhat co-opted by the very forces that have upheld patriarchy. So now we have this idea that a strong woman should be someone who is involved in a million things, who has to constantly undertake the emotional labor of sharing her voice, who has to act in a very certain way, and as much as that feeds into ridiculous fantasies of the “femi-Nazi”, it also feeds back into the feminist community the irrefutable image of the strong woman as an iron lady. This to me seems like womanhood with all the negative qualities of toxic and aggressive masculinity. Strong women don’t necessarily have to be what patriarchal men were. The best lesson I could tell a future woman of William & Mary is that there’s amazing strength in just owning who you are and if that is someone who doesn’t fit this cookie-cutter vision of what a strong woman has to be, which is itself a fiction, embrace it. There is remarkable strength in speaking your truth and testifying for that truth. In these four years, I’ve learnt that the most fulfilling moments happen only when you bear witness to your most authentic self. You don’t try to fit a truth that others may enjoy or that you yourself may want to believe – just be honest with yourself. This campus is at a turning point. We’ve got President-elect Rowe, who has a stunning resume and has done a lot of great work hiring minorities and women. We’ve reached 50 years of African American students and 100 years of women on this campus. Going forth, William & Mary has a blank canvas. Rather than passively inheriting the past, it can forge a new path, a path grounded in softness, in understanding. Like the ideal woman of William & Mary – strong and understanding and who knows herself.  

Yeah I think knowing yourself is very important. Well those are the questions that I had prepared if you want to add anything else, if you have something else you want to say, you’re welcome to say it now.

It’s interesting in that you guys asked for nominations rather than applications. So rather than having someone come forward and say “I believe that I am The Woman, you should talk to me,” you asked the community. And when I was told that I was doing this I was genuinely surprised because I was like, “Am I even a student of William & Mary? I haven’t been here for even two years as of yet!” And I also was like, “Who on earth nominated me?” I’m incredibly honored but I don’t know who these people are but I’m very very grateful however. So it kind of put me in an interesting tiff for a couple of days because I was like, “Am I a Woman of William & Mary? I’ve never considered this.” And does this mean I’ve had an unspoken impact on people where I haven’t realized it, enough so that they felt the need to nominate me for this. And in that moment I kind of realized one issue that I see a lot with women on this campus, and women in general who do well and are smart and brilliant, is a kind of imposter syndrome where we’re like, “Oh, I really do matter? The stuff that comes out of my mouth isn’t stupid?” And I think that in itself was like a “Oh, wow, I tell others to believe in themselves but have I been believing in myself all along?” So that’s one thing that kind of got me thinking of like, “Oh so when I’m interviewed for this, what am I going to say?” because I haven’t been thinking of myself as a Woman of William & Mary. I thought of myself as Meher. And that isn’t necessarily a William & Mary student or just a woman – it’s a lot of different things. So I think what I’d say, again maybe to answer the question that you just asked, because there’s just so much that you can say to a future woman, is that there is no ideal Woman of William & Mary beyond one who knows herself, who speaks her truth, and who is not afraid to be soft. I think that’s most of what I would say. And then just embracing your own complexities. Don’t think that you have to prioritize womanhood over being anything else, and also don’t think that you have to make being a woman subservient to anything else.

Yeah so for our nomination process, we like to get input from the community, and for this project we got around 94 nominations and we spent a long time just going through them. We ended up with 18 because you know, 2018 is the year, and it was a very hard process because the nominations were wonderful and it was just so warming to me to see all of these nominations of people, like you had mentioned, of friends who nominated their friends for being their support system, for being their rock during their four years here, or we also had a lot of professors nominated and a lot of other staff around campus nominated. It’s just things like that that show that this sense of womanhood throughout campus is so strong and it’s so supportive. It was very eye-opening for me to see all of those.

One other thing I was say is it’s interesting because this here, more than I think in the past three years of college, I found myself because I was just putting myself out there but also in just moments like these, I have been asked to speak at things. I was a Charter Day Speaker this year. Recently I spoke on a podcast about diversity with the Student Engagement Office. Leadership Office? Development? Something like that. Or there’s grander things, there’s administration which I’ve had to tweak at, and it’s interesting because like Ladies of Alpha asked women around campus to talk about their experiences, and in each of these moments I would kind of drop on myself like, “Okay this is a moment to speak.” I’ll be speaking as an immigrant, all of these things. And I’ve thought “Okay how do I balance all of this and not sound like a fool and do well by all of these communities?” And I’ve realized that in these opportunities which I’m so grateful for, I’m able to go through almost everything I’ve really wanted to say to my alma mater, and everything I really wanted to say to a place that took me a long time to learn to love, because we had such a bad relationship freshman year and then I wasn’t here for two years. And though I can firmly say I love William & Mary, I have come to love this place very much, one thing I would love to say to it and one lesson that I’ve learned, and I think this ties in with my point about finding strength in softness is when I was coming back this year, I only had the memories of first year, which were largely fruitless memories. And I kind of was like, “Oh man I’m just coming to this place with this bad attitude, I haven’t really gotten much to build off of. I have good friends that I’m coming back to, sure, but more or less the narrative of freshman year isn’t a very triumphant one.” And I kept thinking to myself, “How do I move past this pain and not just be stuck in it?” And I realized the only way you could really move past things that have hurt you, and this is an art I think women have perfected over time, is to take trauma and to build something new out of it. There’s a saying that my mother always says, it’s translated but it’s “flowers always grow around cemeteries.” And I thought to myself that I have to take the things that hurt me as a woman, as a South Asian in my freshman year and I have to do good by them and I have to make things better for all the women who are going to come after me. And one of those things that really made me think about women was freshman year, I really wanted a female mentor, and that’s one thing I really sought out. I never quite found it. In St. Andrews I found so many women I looked up to with totally different backgrounds, but I came in this year and I thought to myself, “I want to do better. I want to be the person I needed when I was younger.” And in that sense, I’ve had a lot of like…I have a little who I adore, she is like future Woman of the World, she’s on like 3 exec boards already, I’m proud of this little freshman. But I also have a lot of quasi-littles in other clubs, you know, people who you just sort of take in as like your babies, and all of them I look in their shining faces and I take out time to be there for them, and I hope I have been, but I constantly think like “Okay what can I do to be the kind of mom that I always wanted to have for myself in these spaces?” And it has been the greatest lesson of senior year and maybe of college, that you can move past pain and you can bring something great from it if you try to make flowers grow from that cemetery, and now that the year is ending and like I’ve told you, I’ve had all these wonderful opportunities given to me and I’m not sure if I deserve them. It’s just wonderful things I’ve been allowed to do like speak at Charter Day, and now this nomination here from people I don’t know who nominated me but I’m very grateful, it just makes me think, “Wow, if you could take me from freshman year and four years later you have me with the amazing chance to speak for all the women who have been at William & Mary, or to be a part of that quilt of voices, it should be a lesson that you can do anything, that you can really take anything and bring good out of it, not by trampling on it or going angrily against it or rebelling against the past, but embracing it and trying to do good by yourself and trying to heal yourself in the good you do.

What piece of advice would you give to future William and Mary women?

If I could offer one piece of advice to future women of William and Mary it would be the following: find opportunities to challenge yourself! Take courses that push you outside of your comfort zone. Don’t be afraid to fail. Failure doesn’t define you and you will learn a lot about yourself in situations when you are challenged.

You mentioned in your first interview the role model you had when deciding to go into teaching in high ed. Could you retell the story about the importance of this woman in your life?

I was lucky enough to have a strong mentor as an undergraduate. A new female economics professor started at my college when I was a senior and I served as her teaching assistant. She really inspired me. Working for her was the first time I could picture myself going to graduate school and pursuing a career in economics. During your time at William & Mary, I encourage you to reach out to mentors who inspire you. Ask questions, get their perspectives, and ask for advice!

What has been the greatest challenge for you as a female professor at William and Mary?

The greatest challenge (and opportunity) for me, as a female professor at W&M, is to serve as a role model and to try and inspire other females to consider pursuing an economics major. Historically, economics has been a more male dominated field and I would like to encourage female students to consider opportunities in economics.

I’m assuming the person who nominated me is a really close friend of mine and she graduated last year. I’m in the South Asian Student Association and she’s my big. I know she had probably mentioned things about mental health and South Asian advocacy, but I don’t even know how to begin to summarize or even tackle explaining everything that has been for me over the past several years. But yes, I do a lot of work with our South Asian Student Association and as of late, we’ve been doing some programming within our organization to tackle stigma surrounding mental health stigma since that’s a particularly present phenomenon unfortunately. Just because of the generation gap and misunderstanding, miseducation, misinformation, things like that. But yeah, it’s been…it was a nice email to get especially after everything and considering where I am right now. I actually medically withdrew from the college last spring, so this time last year. It was for mainly mental health reasons but also because I think at a point your body catches up and is like, “I can’t do this anymore.” And it was pretty awful, my blood pressure just shot down and I was fainting a lot, losing a lot of weight, lightheaded, had no energy, couldn’t walk up the stairs by myself. And so kind of, it was like my body screaming, “Okay you need to take some time for yourself.” That was particularly rough, I think it was a long time coming but actually having to go through with that decision and suffer through that process was something else. I had been struggling with mental health issues since probably senior or junior year of high school, but I think it’s truly an impactful thing when something else and external forces you to take the time to sit down and be like, “Okay, what’s important here?” I’m not saying that education and all this isn’t important — it’s so important, but more for reasons I hadn’t realized initially. It’s become more about the pursuit of knowledge versus the diploma and stamp of approval you get at the end I think. But yeah anyway, I medically withdrew, I took a semester off, and I just came back this spring. So I would be graduating this May but I’m taking an extra semester — thankfully I got away with just an extra semester even though technically it was a year off, since when you medically withdraw, none of those classes from the semester count. But it just kind of opened up a lot of conversations for not only myself but also the people around me and the people who I think for a long time didn’t want to admit mental health was a legitimate thing. My parents in particular, not to say that they haven’t struggled themselves or had to experience any time of turmoil, I think it’s just that the validation wasn’t there. And I know it’s painful to watch someone you love go through things such as this, so obviously I believe that was part of the struggle for them as well. Going through that process though, I realized the lack of advocacy and, honestly, I don’t know, there was just a lack of a comfortable circle that South Asians, or anyone really particularly could talk safely without fear of stigma against mental health if that makes sense. And particularly for South Asians, there is strong stigma, no one really…it was very taboo and shush shush, I know people were whispering but there’s an importance to put all of this there in the open and be like, “this isn’t something that you should be scared to talk about.” That put me in a very vulnerable place.

I’m aware most people would say it would be embarrassing or something they would be scared to confront publicly normally, which I completely understand — it was terrifying to tell my friends and everything and be able to talk about it in the open but I don’t know, I think that’s part of defeating the fear itself is just saying it out loud. I started a blog mainly for me as part of my healing process but also to just put that information and narrative out there and be like, “hey this is something I’m going to talk about candidly and brazenly.” And the blog is mainly geared towards… actually I don’t even know if it’s geared towards South Asians in particular, there are certainly some struggles through discrimination that I’ve had to face that’s in there but honestly it’s a safe space for me and other people to come and read and truly know that this is a real thing that people are going through and I think there is so much… well people underestimate all the freaking time how much strength, support, and just sheer desire to live that can come out of the love another person can give you. It’s just insane. And people don’t understand what sitting down next to someone and just talking to them and saying, “I love you and I’m here for you and how are you?” can do. People just have no idea the power that can hold and so I think that’s part of what I, now moving forward with the things I’m involved in, want to make sure I remind people of, it sounds so cheesy, the power of love. There’s this really good Nelson Mandela quote that I’m obsessed with, “Our human compassion bind us one to the other, not in pity or patronizingly, but as human beings who have learnt to turn our common suffering into hope for the future.” So yeah essentially just the fact that people can struggle together and find solidarity in that, which can bring so much to the world. I really am just taking that and moving forward with it through all the work that I do.

So you’ve been able to use your personal experiences to help those around you.

Yeah, for sure. As vulnerable of a position it can put me in, I think it’s so necessary and I’m glad there’s this whole movement developing around vulnerability not being identified as a weakness but rather a strength. I think that’s so important. The moment you let your guard down and let people in…it’s not only a very courageous act of your own but also inspires others to do the same. It’s been several years but it’s been good in that I’m much healthier now and I think us being so young, we take health for granted sometimes. Generally we’re so fit and we think we’re virtually indestructible and can do anything to our bodies but it doesn’t work like that unfortunately. It’s all about the mindset, I go to therapy and everything — another very hush hush thing that people don’t talk about. I was so proud of my friend the other day who I knew several years before was very antsy around the topic of mental health, but just recently he just slipped into conversation like, “yeah I got class and then I gotta to therapy but I’m free around this time if you want to grab dinner?” And inside I was screaming for him! That barrier being broken down. I’m super thankful, finding a therapist and all, it’s like shopping. You don’t always get it right on the first time. Sometimes you have to look around for different providers and see who vibes with you. The one that I recently got after I came back to school is phenomenal and really kind of changed this whole idea of fighting everything in my head to fighting for myself instead. It makes the world of difference when you stop pushing yourself away. That stress builds on itself, right? Like “oh my god I’m freaking out,” you know? “I’m stressing out, so sad, so…” and all? But then when you start to realize why those things are there and appreciate each feeling for what it is, it becomes a lot easier, and as terrible as the feelings are, once you start to appreciate what they’re there protecting you from or what experiences preceded you feeling a certain way it’s like, “oh okay that makes sense, let me take that and move forward.” That also helped a lot. But I don’t know, it’s just…it’s…like I said I’m at a terrible loss for words, I don’t even know how to even begin to…beyond being thankful for being able to sit here and talk to you and be able to put this out there where everyone can read it but the fact that I’m even just still sitting here is a miracle. My freshman year — you know how there was unfortunately a string of suicides — and that was really difficult and one of them was a close friend of mine who was from my hometown and also in South Asian Student Association so I think that’s kind of where the necessity for this, you know, this movement against, you know, breaking the stigma and bringing this conversation out into the open, so I’m, you know…I can’t even say thankful because I wish that’s not what had to happen in order to promote that, but I hope that, you know…thankful for everything that she is and wherever she is now. But I don’t know, do you have any questions? I’m flustered, I’m sorry.

A question that we’re trying to ask as part of this project is, if you could talk to a future woman of William and Mary, what would you tell her in regards to your story and your experience?

That’s a really good question. I don’t know, I guess the biggest thing going along what I was saying earlier is it’s okay to feel whatever you’re feeling, you know? Whether you’re super frustrated that there’s a test at 9 am and it’s 7 pm and you’re freaking out, it’s okay and don’t beat yourself up for being stressed out. If you’re crying about something that seems sort of petty at the moment, I’m sure it’s not. There’s a reason why…I don’t know, I think just …throughout her time here and in the future, to just make sure she’s fighting for herself and not against herself. And I think the William & Mary student, and especially women, we’re so hard on ourselves, you know? We hold ourselves, especially here, to higher expectations than other people hold us to, and it really tends to kick us in the butt, so I think just trusting yourself and trusting your gut instincts because there’s a reason that she’s here, there’s a reason that she’s, you know, feeling and doing the things that she’s doing. She should strive to consistently respect herself and actualize that everything she’s accomplished to this point is more than enough and more than anyone could’ve asked for. So, reach out to your loved ones every day. The best support system is around you. People are there even when you don’t know they are and that’s also something I’ve come to realize. She’s never alone, ever, ever, ever, ever alone. Heck, if she’s listening to this right, just know that wherever I am, there’s me, someone on a corner of the planet that’s there for her rooting for her. There’s so much love to be given and to be found. Hold onto that while you’re here. Yeah, just truly embrace everything that this experience has to give her, the good and the bad. Because it does both. But um, each side is definitely profound. But yeah, that’s the advice I would give a future William & Mary woman.

I think that’s something I’ve found that a lot of people struggle with as well. Even myself, I am from Oregon and so it was really hard for me to come here from so far away. Freshman year was really really difficult for me because I was far from my family for the first time, I was in this place that I didn’t know whether I liked yet. I was like, “I don’t know what I’m majoring in, I don’t know what I want to get involved in, everything is up in the air.” And that was the first time in my life that that had happened to me because my life had been so like straightforward before then, and everything was then turned upside down when I got here. So the first few months here were really rough for me, and I called my parents like every single day and I just cried on the phone and I was like, “I just can’t do this.” And thankfully I had an amazing freshman hall and my roommate was wonderful and I was able to make those friends and those connections to support me through all of that and even since then, like with all the things I’ve gone through here, they’ve supported me. And I think that’s something that, when you first get here freshman year, it’s something that you don’t know is going to happen so it seems like, when you first get here and everything is terrifying, it just seems like it’s always going to be that way and you’re never going to get out of that rut. So I think it’s important for people to know that everything is going to be okay, you’ll make that support system soon, you just have to hang out for a little bit and everything will be okay.

Yeah, and that’s completely understandable, I mean I could not imagine dropping everything and flying thousands of miles away to start completely fresh. That’s amazing to hear that you found such a beautiful home so far away from what you actually knew. Yeah isn’t that crazy though? To think that you could just drop everything and then find people who just get you? It’s absurd. I think people also underestimate the value…again like I said another person’s presence in your life can make all the difference. It’s just like the genuine human compassion, like you can find someone anywhere in any corner of the world and be friends with them if you needed to, which is a nice feeling.

Right, there’s always someone looking out for you.

Exactly, that’s important to remember especially through the tough times here with the school and everything. Yeah it’s…lucky to have found a solid group of friends. That’s why I’m super thankful for SASA and groups like that where you can, you know, bond with people who have the same morals and values and upbringing and struggles and stigmas that they have to deal with, and so…super appreciative for the diverse organizations that we have here that can cater to every type of William & Mary student. But yeah, trying to think if there’s anything else remotely interesting that I can tell you. It’s like overwhelming slightly, you know, like what else could I possibly say? If anything, it’s like me wanting to tell other people to start a conversation with themselves or other people around them, right? Because how much can I say versus who knows what the person sitting next to you while you’re reading this could say to them too. Like anyone could’ve been sitting here and could’ve said something equally as interesting or moving, which I think is a special thing about this, you know? I swear to God in my head I was more prepared for this…I’m trying to think…there are things, they’re just simmering a bit. My little sister goes here, that’s kind of cool. Biological little sister. I would technically be a senior right now and she’s a sophomore. We couldn’t be more different but it’s kind of cool to see like…we’ve gotten a lot closer since we’ve gotten here. And that’s not even something that I wanted to admit, like in my head in theory I would be like, “oh yeah we’ve always been close!” But um…she said that to someone once that we’ve gotten a lot closer and it’s like “wow, I really appreciate that she feels that way” you know? I’ll take it.

Has she looked up to you going through these experiences?

That’s a good question. Good question for her. Maybe I’ll have to sit down and ask. It’s been difficult, right, like um…I think for anyone that loves someone else, it’s really hard to see them struggle so I don’t…I know for sure that it wasn’t easy at all for her knowing that I was in such a tough spot consistently going to doctors and falling down the stairs fainting and also had those mental health things and…I’m very emotional, like I will blurb and tell you everything I’m feeling and will get you to talk about your deepest darkest secrets and how you feel inside, but she’s very…I don’t know if she feels like she has to compensate for that. Like she’s very, you know, needs to hold a little steadier. And so I didn’t initially tell her about all these struggles and everything because I thought she would feel a little awkward about them, which I think she kind of was. She didn’t really know how to navigate the subject which I don’t blame her, it’s difficult. But she learned, and I think that’s very reassuring for me, like if people do have preconceived notions that aren’t necessarily accurate, like stigmas or fears, like genuine fears of starting a conversation about something so sensitive, change to that can be done. I think that applies to more than just mental health. I think, you know, this is the time and age when we’re having very difficult conversations that are making people feel awkward and embarrassed if they don’t know much about what they’re talking about but I think if you approach every conversation with kindness, respect, a buttload of patience, and the right genuine intention, I don’t think there is a wrong way to broach a topic like that. And on the receiving side, I also…it’s been tough for me but I also have to understand that there are plenty of people who aren’t necessarily aware of mental health illnesses and things like that. I think from the receiving side we also have to be patient with those who are unaware but have genuine intentions and want to learn. It’s a double-sided thing and so…I could not have a better sister than her. She’s everything that I hope I don’t become. As in like…wait that didn’t make sense. She’s everything that I wish to be but I’m not. So I know she can aspire to more than what I’ll ever accomplish because she’s just such an incredible person. She’s so strong. Truly my best friend. She’ll be a little shocked to hear that because we rip each other’s hair out every other day but she’s truly…she’s a good human and I appreciate wholesome good humans. And I’m not just saying that because she’s my sister. She’s a part of my good support system. And we’re from Virginia Beach so that’s not far away at all, maybe like an hour away. And it’s just me and her and my parents so the three of them kind of navigating me withdrawing and all the medical bills and expenses has been inconvenient, so I really appreciate that patience that they’ve given me.

Oh yeah, and that kind of support system really makes all the difference.

Yeah, family is everything, you know? But I know people get, which I completely understand, some people get like uncomfortable calling other people that aren’t biological family “family.” Which I totally understand, for some people it’s a very special and sacred word. But I think for me, not that my actual biological family isn’t special, but it’s crazy the family that I’ve found here and in other places. Professors too, like we just don’t realize how much of real people they are, if that makes sense. Like behind the tests that they give and assignments and homework that we think is unreasonable, they have a life. They have struggles. One of my favorite professors here my sophomore year also took some time off for herself, and I look up to her. She went to a phenomenal school for her education and is teaching in what I’m interested in, and the fact that she is so vulnerable and so strong and so resilient and able to take the time off when needed, like this is not…this kind of stress and mental health is not just something that affects twenty-year-olds in college, you know? Being that forgiving and loving to yourself is a lifelong process, which I decided to continue to do. I have to get so much better to myself. It’s so easy to beat yourself up here.

It’s so easy to just compare yourself to others here. We’re surrounded by a few thousand high-achieving people and it’s very easy to get lost in that and to be like, “oh well what did I do to deserve my spot here?”

But that’s like the cool thing, like I’ll meet people and after you get to know them awhile, like you can kind of pick out why they’re here, like what phenomenal thing…like usually one thing will stick out. I have one friend and he could just network the butt out of you. I don’t know how he does it, but just the way he talks, it’s like you’ve known him for years. He just has this incredible quality to make everyone feel so welcome when you’re talking to him. And I have another friend who’s just insanely intelligent. It just takes her no time to process whatever she’s learning, picks things up, knows the mundane little facts and also the big giant theories. And I have another friend who is somehow the most wholesome human I know, she is able to juggle like ten different things so beautifully and is able to maintain all her friendships and all her extracurriculars, is just like the quintessential well-rounded being. So it’s just kinda nice to see…again there’s a reason for why we’re all here. Sometimes you have to be nice to yourself and be like, “okay, let me turn that admiration inwards and be like, ‘okay why am I here?’” you know? What am I bringing to the table? And if I don’t know, let me take some time to delve into that and figure it out. There’s no reason we shouldn’t love ourselves the way we love other people. And it’s hard, I think people always think that self-love and appreciation is something that’s supposed to come so naturally, and you hear people like “you shouldn’t date anyone until you’re in love with yourself” and like that’s totally valid and I get the idea but for people who have self-esteem issues and things like depression and anxiety, that’s not an easy battle. And recognizing that that’s not easy and not beating yourself up because it takes time to reach the point where you can confidently say, “oh I love myself,” you know? So yeah, just being forgiving through that process is so important. You think all those things come easily but they unfortunately don’t, especially when we’re in an area like this where things can be so cutthroat — not as cutthroat as it could be, but still. What do they call it — high pressure makes diamonds or something? I don’t know, I might be making that up. I don’t think that’s a thing either though. People also feel like they can only thrive if they struggle through things but there’s nothing wrong with taking the easier, more “kind-to-yourself” path towards a goal. In fact this is something I’ve been doing some research on, as part of defeating the stigma of mental health in the South Asian community is realizing why it’s there. So there’s a stark difference between…America and more eastern societies. America tends to be extremely individualistic whereas South Asian countries tend to be more collectivist, so…like America is built on, “You can do this, you can do anything, like I got myself here,” very much about the strength of the individual, which there’s nothing wrong with. But in South Asian communities it’s more about the family centered. Whatever you do reflects upon your brothers and your sisters and your parents particularly. So when translating that to stigma when “there’s something wrong with you,” quote unquote, like a mental health illness, the “blame and responsibility” reflects and falls more so on the parents where their internal dialogue is, “what did I do wrong in raising my child?” And I know my parents have felt that too, like “where did we go wrong? Why are you suffering like this?” Not that that doesn’t happen in America, but I think that’s part of where that strong stigma comes from. But like I said, in America, everything is so much more about what you can accomplish as an individual and I think that “the grind-”, you know everyone’s idea where you gotta work hard, you gotta sweat, blood, tears, comes – in order to pursue the American Dream. And so people think that you have to beat yourself up in order to reach the top but I just don’t think that that’s a) fair to yourself and b) how it should really work. We shouldn’t strive for pain in order to birth success. I don’t think that’s healthy. Like what’s the point of getting to the top if you’re barely alive when you get there? It’s so important to be kind to yourself. Especially like now during finals. I usually get a big thing of candy and just go around Swem, starting on third then going to second. Everyone needs sugar, you know? Everyone wants candy. You gotta get the hard candy and the chocolate so that people have the choice because one time I did just chocolate and people were a little disappointed.

They had little baggies of candy the other day in Swem. That was nice.

I saw that! That was so nice. And it’s good that this isn’t the only movement towards health being holistic. *clapping* Round of applause for the Integrated Wellness Center that’s opening next year — I’m so excited for that. It’s reassuring to know that it’s not just something that is just a movement within students, which I appreciate. The whole campus is getting on board and people like Kelly Crace and Mayanthi…I love that woman, Mayanthi, oh my God. Unfortunately she’s leaving William & Mary, but she works in the Office of Health Promotion and she’s just a beautiful human. But people like that you know, they just make the school better. I appreciate them.

Yeah it’s definitely been interesting to see this movement happening while we’ve been here.

Yeah for sure, and again I think some really unfortunate, unnecessary things happened to spur that movement, you know, but nevertheless I’m glad it happened. I always love the doggos. I got a cat, a therapy cat. Let me just highly advocate for cats for a second. Don’t underestimate the power of a kitten, okay? Because it can change your world. I thought I was a dog person. I thought cats were the pet of the devil but they, in fact, are not. I went into the shelter for a dog, came out with my kitten whose name is Leela and she’s the most adorable thing in the entire world. She’s kinda like a dog. She plays fetch. All of my friends reading this are gonna be like, “Oh my God the rest of this interview is going to be about her cat” but I swear it won’t be. But yeah, animals, we just don’t deserve them. We do not deserve them, dude. She’s been a great source of comfort with everything. And where I was going with that is that the school even allows emotional support animals in dorms and stuff which I think is important. I’m not gonna put my cat in a 10’x10’ Jamestown single but it’s allowed if I needed to. I’m living in the gradplex next year so hopefully they won’t be too bad so she’ll have some room to run around. But yeah, definitely support getting cats. They’re just as good as dogs. They play fetch too. Animals and people, they’re equally important.

I live in an off-campus house with some friends, and we recently got two guinea pigs. And they are just adorable and they love to just hangout on your chest and are just happy being there for hours.

Oh my god I want a guinea pig. My cat would probably eat it though.

Their names are Ruth and Cleo, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Cleopatra, named after just two strong women. I love it. They just hangout. They are beautiful and amazing…I’m trying to find a good picture of them.

How long ago did you get them?

We got them at the beginning of the semester. So here’s Ruth.

Awww! She’s a little guinea pig!

They’ve gotten huge though. They’ve gained so much weight. There’s both of them. Cleo’s the lighter one.

That’s a wonderful picture! Oh they’re precious.

They’re both so cute! So that’s definitely been a highlight of our semester, having some guinea pigs to hangout with.

I’m telling you, Petsmart is somewhere I frequent often, as well as the shelter that’s here. They’re special. They had buy one get one free for kittens when I got her but I had to prevent myself from that.

Two kittens! That would’ve been a lot.

Yeah, it would’ve been something. Because I was in Williamsburg over the summer scribing after I withdrew, which is another whole thing because I was supposed to be taking the time off for myself to really invest in my health. It didn’t come until later. But anyway, I was alone in a huge three-story house and it was wonderful company having a cat. They’re like babies, you know? I’m a mother now, that’s what I tell my mom. My sister is convinced that my cat is evil but that’s how I feel about our dog at home. It evens out. My dog at home though, he’s a Maltipoo, a Maltese and a Poodle. He’s the most particular, prissy thing in the entire world. He will not walk on the grass. He’ll take the sidewalk everywhere. And by taking the sidewalk, I mean that he won’t go on walks. If I’m going to the mailbox, he’ll follow my around the lawn. Like if I’m walking on the grass he will literally walk around on the sidewalk next to the lawn. And if you try to take him on an actual walk, he’ll get about twenty steps and then stops and sits so you have to drag him the rest of the way. So yeah, they have personalities too. I’m grateful for everything including my cat. Cats and people and food and sleep. Sleep is good too. The four most important things. Sincerely. Are you graduating this year?

Mhmm. It’s crazy. I have like a week?

I can’t imagine. Do you have any things you’re trying to do before you graduate? Any last-minute bucket list things? I need advice for next semester. I have to make sure I squeeze everything in.

I’m really just trying to spend as much time with my friends as I can.

Are you going back to Oregon?

I’m actually going to Boston for the next two years for grad school, and then I’m hoping to go back to Portland after that. So we’ll see, I’m excited. I’ll be studying Computational Biology so it just…it’s really awesome. It’s really overwhelming to think about two more years of school right now, especially during finals. And I have a pretty intensive summer internship so I’m kinda like…trying to figure out when I’ll actually have time to sleep and relax but yeah, it’s exciting! Just a lot going on right now, a lot of moving parts. Yeah I’m just trying to spend as much time with friends as I can, because I don’t know how much free time I’ll have when I’m in Boston to come back here and visit. But it’s tough because I have a full final schedule. So other than that, I really want to spend more time in CW because it’s such a unique thing about here, maybe go out to College Creek a few times since it’s finally nice. I think it’s supposed to rain on Saturday though.